Chat Logs/2008-10-26

From Order of Cosmic Engineers

The following is a mostly-complete, slightly-edited log of the chat from Oct. 26, 2008, at the SL-Transhumanists lounge / Cosmic Engineers SL Group HQ.

See Chat Logs for a list of other chat logs.

Chat Logs/2008-10-26
- Date: Oct. 26, 2008
- Main Participants:
- Other people present:
- Topics:

The following pages contain text compiled from this chat:

[9:08] Peer Infinity: hi Solari :D
[9:08] Dante Quan: Evening all
[9:08] Solari Hayashida: Hiya Dante ^^
[9:08] Dante Quan: :)
[9:08] Solari Hayashida: Peer? I can't see you yet X3
[9:08] Solari Hayashida still rezzing
[9:08] Peer Infinity: hi everyone :D
[9:08] Peer gives Solari a big hug.
[9:08] BB Lutwag: hi everyone
[9:08] Solari Hayashida: hi BB :)
[9:08] Peer Infinity: sorry Sol, I forgot to tell you about the meeting today...
[9:08] Dante Quan: for those that join us on IRC< Solari is a large cloud.
[9:09] Dante Quan: I thought we were starting at 6?
[9:09] Solari Hayashida: H'lo ^^ I'm a cloud
[9:10] Peer Infinity is reminded of that scene from Winnie the Pooh, where Winnie was pretending to be a cloud...
[9:10] Dante Quan shakes his head
[9:11] Dixit Writer: hi
[9:11] IRC: PeerInfinity has joined #cosmeng
[9:11] Dante Quan: Peer, anyone in there?
[9:11] Dante Quan: Hi Dixit :)
[9:11] IRC: PeerInfinity: yes, Alonzo, Gareth, and MikeD are here :)
[9:11] IRC: PeerInfinity: hi Alonzo :)
[9:12] IRC: PeerInfinity: hi Gareth :)
[9:12] Dante Quan: Hello, all you disembodnied people
[9:13] Dixit Writer: http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=5T_R40Zb--U
[9:13] Dixit Writer: lol
[9:13] Solari Hayashida: Teleporter, or jeopardy? o.o
[9:13] Solari Hayashida: Hmm, between two bunnies again..? >.>
[9:14] Peer Infinity: :D
[9:14] Solari Hayashida: X3
[9:14] Dante Quan: eh oh, darling
[9:14] Dante Quan: Solari, consider yourself lucky.
[9:14] Solari Hayashida: uh oh?
[9:15] Peer Infinity: don't worry, we'll be nice this time :)
[9:15] Dante Quan: what happened last time?
[9:15] Peer Infinity: though, I can't think of anything not nice about the other times...
[9:15] Solari Hayashida: X3
[9:15] Dante Quan: awww....
[9:16] Peer Infinity doublesnuggles with Sol, and plays footsie with Dante :)
[9:16] Dante Quan: silly bunny...
[9:17] Solari Hayashida wriggles between, and pets the bunny pair n.n
[9:18] Dante Quan: :P
[9:18] Peer Infinity: :D
[9:18] SL4observer Lane: :D
[9:18] Dante Quan: BB, did you have any luck with those fractals last time we spoke?
[9:18] Solari Hayashida: Hi BB, if I forgot to greet you o,o
[9:18] BB Lutwag: what did I say I was doing with fractals
[9:18] Dante Quan: creating an inworld generator, if I recall
[9:19] Dante Quan: sweetie, Peer?
[9:19] BB Lutwag: hi Solari
[9:19] Rober1236 Jua: So he is a threat
[9:19] Rober1236 Jua: but how do you knwo he is not conscious?
[9:19] IRC: DLucifer has joined #cosmeng
[9:19] BB Lutwag: one of my ideas that I never did anything with
[9:19] IRC: PeerInfinity: hi Lucifer :D
[9:20] IRC: DLucifer bows
[9:20] IRC: DLucifer: Greetings, all!
[9:20] SuspendMe Turbo: i imagine iam the fat man, but there are no thoughts in his head
[9:20] Dante Quan: Hello, Dlucifer
[9:20] Solari Hayashida: bonjour, messieur Lucifer
[9:20] SuspendMe Turbo: there are no feelings inside him
[9:21] Dante Quan: I swear I just passed out for five mins, because no-one is making a word of sense to me
[9:21] SuspendMe Turbo: he just keeps following me, and keeps trying to hit me
[9:21] Dante Quan: SuspendMe, who is following you, and what, indeed, are you going on about? O.o
[9:22] Rober1236 Jua: Its a dream
[9:22] SuspendMe Turbo: :) a dream i keep having , Dante
[9:22] Peer Infinity: Sus and Rober were having their own private conversation before I dragged their chairs over here
[9:22] Dante Quan: oh good, for a moment, I thought I was going ga-ga
[9:22] SuspendMe Turbo: a fat man keeps trying to hit me
[9:23] Peer Infinity: hi Lucifer :D
[9:23] Dante Quan: sounds fun, kinky? :P
[9:23] Rober1236 Jua: Hmmm well I can only tell you the technique I have seen used
[9:23] Lucifer Darrow bows
[9:23] Rober1236 Jua: which I have
[9:23] Dante Quan: Well, now I know we're in trouble
[9:23] Rober1236 Jua: this is not really the place to go much further
[9:23] Rober1236 Jua: it could be just a doubt about yourself
[9:23] Rober1236 Jua: or it could me that you killed someone at the age of 5
[9:24] Rober1236 Jua: SL is not the best place to do these kinds of things in depth
[9:24] SuspendMe Turbo: lol, i would remember
[9:24] Rober1236 Jua: Maybe not
[9:24] Rober1236 Jua: thats why the dream
[9:24] Lucifer Darrow: Ahoy, Sat!
[9:24] Rober1236 Jua: he so big and fat and yet he is not noticed LOL
[9:24] Sat Batra: avast Lucifer
[9:24] Peer Infinity: hi Sat :D
[9:25] Sat Batra: hi peer
[9:25] SuspendMe Turbo: well, i dont notice him, there are other people around, and they see him
[9:25] Zentinal Ziskey: hello everyone
[9:25] Peer Infinity: hi zentinal, hi Dixit :)
[9:25] Solari Hayashida: Helloooo
[9:25] Dixit Writer: hhiiiiii
[9:26] Dixit Writer: :D
[9:26] Dante Quan: forgive me, but i'm going to have to make you look all cartoonish whilst I turn on avatar imposters
[9:26] BB Lutwag: with the number of people showing up for these meetings we will soon have critical mass for starting a revolution
[9:26] Dixit Writer: lol
[9:26] Zentinal Ziskey: heh!
[9:26] Dante Quan: and what would we do, BB? Overthrow the Board of Directors?
[9:26] Peer Infinity: well, that's kinda what we were hoping for...
[9:26] Solari Hayashida: Its a meeting? o.o
[9:27] Zentinal Ziskey: oh no, i've stumbled into a secret cabal!
[9:27] Zentinal Ziskey: ;-)
[9:27] Dante Quan: excuse me, I need to take a breather
[9:27] Peer Infinity: yes, the Cosmic Engineers group meets here every Sunday at 10:00 AM PDT
[9:27] SuspendMe Turbo: iam here, just for the cake, iam not really into this revolution thing
[9:28] Sat Batra: I'm here as a trophy date for Lucifer
[9:28] Peer Infinity can't resist quoting: "the cake is a lie"
[9:28] Dixit Writer: see ya later ^^
[9:28] Rober1236 Jua: Oh really
[9:28] SuspendMe Turbo: iam very confident there will be cake
[9:28] Rober1236 Jua: I have to run but I will be back for that
[9:28] SuspendMe Turbo: bye Robert
[9:28] Lucifer Darrow chuckles at Peer's allusion
[9:28] Rober1236 Jua: Mr Turbo is has been an honour
[9:29] Zentinal Ziskey: perhaps the cake is a virtual truth
[9:29] Peer Infinity: hehe :)
[9:29] SuspendMe Turbo: me and the fat man enjoyed out conversation
[9:31] Peer Infinity: hi Arisia :)
[9:31] BB Lutwag: I am behind on the mailing list, 1e messages since I lasted looked
[9:31] BB Lutwag: 12
[9:32] Dante Quan: eh oh again
[9:32] BB Lutwag: looks like didn't have enough coffee yet, can't type
[9:32] Dante Quan: dont mention coffee, i'm off caffine and cigeratees today, and i'm dying for both
[9:33] Dante Quan: too much Chili, Lucifer? :P
[9:33] Lucifer Darrow: heh
[9:36] Dante Quan taps the IRC gateway "Hello? Anyone in there?"
[9:36] IRC: PeerInfinity: hi :)
[9:37] Dante Quan: Peer, your like sand, you get everywhere.
[9:37] IRC: PeerInfinity: hehe :)
[9:37] Solari Hayashida: X3
[9:38] Zentinal Ziskey: slurl
[9:39] Dante Quan gave you exoticWarningIcons (+mod +copy +trans).
[9:41] Dante Quan puts up a sign on the desk
[9:42] Dante Quan: dont say you werent warned :P
[9:43] SuspendMe Turbo: what is this thing you call 'group intellect' ?
[9:43] Peer Infinity: hehe :)
[9:45] Dante Quan: a dream machine in the corner?
[9:46] Peer Infinity: try it :)
[9:46] Dante Quan: if I must. :P
[9:47] Dante Quan: oooh heck
[9:47] Zentinal Ziskey: dream machine?
[9:47] Peer Infinity: hmm, looks like you're way too tall for it...
[9:47] Peer Infinity: those plugs are supposed to plug into your neck...
[9:47] Dante Quan: looks like the perfect sort of virtual blackmail to me
[9:48] Dante Quan: better?
[9:48] Dante Quan: nope
[9:48] Dante Quan: hmmm
[9:49] Zentinal Ziskey: back in a while - experimenting with an sl > twitter interface
[9:50] Dante Quan: Oh, Peer? Have you got a copy of 'So you want to be a Seed AI programmer'? Mine's gone missing :(
[9:51] Peer Infinity: you mean this: http://sl4.org/wiki/SoYouWantToBeASeedAIProgrammer
[9:51] Dante Quan: yay! I knew you'd have it
[9:51] Dante Quan bearhugs Peer
[9:52] Peer Infinity: :D
[9:53] Dante Quan: anyone here not read the Humanity+ Magazine?
[9:53] Peer Infinity is quite embarassed to not have read it yet...
[9:54] Peer Infinity: http://www.hplusmagazine.com/
[9:54] Dante Quan: thats the one
[9:55] Dante Quan: I was attracted to the EPOC Neuroheadset and the Artificial Hippocampus, the worlds first direct neuroprostehtic.
[9:58] Peer Infinity: hi Areluna :)
[9:59] Areluna Aeon: Good Morning/Afternoon
[10:00] Peer Infinity suddenly realizes - have some countries already had the Daylight Saving shift already?
[10:00] Solari Hayashida: The Netherlands has
[10:01] Solari Hayashida gave you Bunnycooch.
[10:01] Peer Infinity: hi Zobeid :D
[10:01] Peer Infinity: hi Niles :D
[10:01] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Hi Peer, evreyone
[10:01] Areluna Aeon: hello
[10:02] Dante Quan: 'Hello lag my old friend, i've come to talk to you again'
[10:04] PlanetNiles Dreamscape chuckles
[10:04] IRC: AlonzoTG: The hipocampus is a deeply embedded structure, The part of the hipocampus everyone's interested in is deep in the temporal lobe, I can't immagine a surgical technique that could successfully access it....
[10:04] Solari Hayashida: Hi Niles
[10:05] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Hi Solari
[10:05] Dante Quan: Alonzo, it has proven very vulenreblel, hence the artificial construct designed to replace it
[10:05] Solari Hayashida gave you 29d5.
[10:05] Dante Quan: i've no doubt the implantation itself causes minor damage, but nothing that cant be recorvered
[10:07] Zobeid Zuma: What are we discussing today? (The only "hippocampus" I know is an AD&D monster.)
[10:07] Dante Quan bangs head agaisnt floor
[10:07] Solari Hayashida: its a part of the brain o.o
[10:07] Dante Quan: very important to long-term memories
[10:07] IRC: AlonzoTG: I understand the motivation for the procedure, I just can't immagine how it would be carried out...
[10:08] Dante Quan: or is it short-term? I forgot
[10:08] Solari Hayashida: cos you banged your head
[10:08] Dante Quan: Alonzo, I endevour to find out as soon as I can. I doubt it's not without side-effects that may bring about a totally new lifestyle
[10:09] Dante Quan: now theres a point, if you replace the brain, is the subject still human?
[10:09] Peer Infinity: hehe :)
[10:09] Dante Quan: ;)
[10:10] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: could ev eryone rebake please; I'm surrounded by a sea of grey and fog
[10:11] Solari Hayashida rebakes. and then there will be cake o.o
[10:11] Dante Quan: I'm putting myself in the oven now.
[10:11] Peer Infinity rebakes...
[10:11] Dante Quan: hmmm....memetic hazard, me thinks
[10:12] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: well what is human?
[10:12] Dante Quan: to me, it is the brain, the interactions, the cells and chemicals themselves
[10:12] Dante Quan: I cut off my arm, and I am no less human
[10:12] Zobeid Zuma: It has different meanings depending on context.
[10:12] Areluna Aeon: Human is a biological form created by genetic material on a random basis
[10:13] Solari Hayashida: cyborg. but we dont call amputees that...
[10:13] Solari Hayashida: if you use a prostethic
[10:13] Peer Infinity: hi xyryx :)
[10:13] BB Lutwag: has the meeting moved
[10:13] Dante Quan: well, if this artificial hippocampus works, we may hear a shout from the connectionist fellows
[10:14] xyryx Simca: Peer: Hi!
[10:14] Lucifer Darrow: I define "human" by genetics only
[10:15] Zobeid Zuma: I'm very bogged, got to relog.
[10:15] Dante Quan: by running?
[10:15] Dante Quan: o.O
[10:15] Lucifer Darrow: Zobeid is experiencing the Red Queen effect
[10:15] Dante Quan: and whats that, then?
[10:16] Lucifer Darrow: running to stay in place
[10:16] Dante Quan: ah, Wikipedia is my friend :)
[10:16] Arisia Vita: wb Zobi
[10:16] Peer Infinity wonders why Giulio is so late...
[10:17] Dante Quan: I wouldnt be suprised if he was running, that would expalin it.
[10:17] Lucifer Darrow: I think G would want us to start without him...
[10:18] Peer Infinity: yes, so... shall we get onto topic now?
[10:18] Lucifer Darrow: Sure, what is the topic?
[10:18] Dante Quan: no objections here, i've only got a finite supply of bad jokes
[10:18] Peer Infinity: the topic was supposed to be brainstorming what direction the group should be heading in, what we should be doing next...
[10:19] Lucifer Darrow: There was a lot of traffic on the lists this week about mainstream criticism/acceptance of H+ ideas
[10:19] Dante Quan: ooh yes, that nasty little duo of blog posts, as well
[10:20] Peer Infinity: hi Morpheus, hi Dryden :)
[10:20] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: please lets
[10:20] Areluna Aeon: hello
[10:20] Zobeid Zuma: I was just thinking about whether we should take an activist slant. . .
[10:20] Lucifer Darrow: I think most of us here are reluctant to water down our message and vision to appeal to the masses
[10:20] PlanetNiles Dreamscape waves to teh new arrivals
[10:20] Peer Infinity: welcome back Rober :)
[10:20] Dante Quan: I would say it IS watered down enough
[10:21] Lucifer Darrow: How so, Dante?
[10:21] Rober1236 Jua: Hi
[10:21] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes so we should sex-up our message without watering it down
[10:21] Dante Quan: well, the message, to my ears, dosent sound as thought it invites critisism and possible rejection
[10:21] Dante Quan: does*
[10:22] Dante Quan: which I beleive is what watered-down messages normally sound like.
[10:22] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: what exactly is our message?
[10:22] Solari Hayashida waves quietly. She has to go. Friend in need :x
[10:22] Dante Quan: toodles Solari
[10:22] Peer Infinity: actually, we still haven't decided whether we should be focusing on spreading the message, or on working on specific projects... or perhaps some of both...
[10:23] Peer Infinity: ok, bye Solari
[10:23] Lucifer Darrow: I would summarize our message as "transcendence through technology is possible and desirable!"
[10:23] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: hb Solari :)
[10:23] Dante Quan: I would suggest work.
[10:23] Dante Quan: yes, but why desirable?
[10:23] Areluna Aeon: What is the purpose of the message?
[10:23] Dante Quan: explain that to the masses
[10:23] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: and what do you mean by Transcendence?
[10:23] IntLibber BnT: heya
[10:24] Dante Quan: ambiguity, I hate it.
[10:24] Lucifer Darrow: Greetings, IntLibber
[10:24] Lucifer Darrow: Why is transcendence desirable?
[10:24] Morpheus Maximus: Hi Intlibber
[10:24] Dante Quan: what are the alternitives?
[10:24] Dante Quan: stagnation?
[10:24] Zobeid Zuma: Transcendence doesn't do much for me. I just want to combat the luddites.
[10:24] IntLibber BnT: well unlimited growth doesnt necessarily require transcendance
[10:25] Lucifer Darrow: Stagnation, suffering, death are the alternatives
[10:25] Dante Quan: it is of some importance to me to come up with an alternitive to the Immortailty problem, where would we go?
[10:25] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: well makeing a sweeping generalisation - most people are scared of new ideas
[10:25] Dante Quan: should we live forever and breed forever...
[10:26] Zobeid Zuma: People didn't used to be. Science, industry and progress were once seen as good things. . . How did that change?
[10:26] IntLibber BnT: pollutions and labor problems
[10:26] Dante Quan: lack of trust in technology, accidents, technology used by bad people
[10:26] Rober1236 Jua: THe 20th Century happen I am afraid, that is what made it change
[10:26] Dante Quan: you get the general idea
[10:26] IntLibber BnT: and of course the nuclear bomb
[10:27] IntLibber BnT: people fear any individual holding astronomical amounts of power
[10:27] Lucifer Darrow: Literary romanticism has seized the consciousness of the masses, beginning with Frankenstein (no offence xyryx)
[10:27] Peer Infinity: Steve Cobb made some good points in his email - maybe transhumanism won't be accepted until it is a part of everyday life, until the technologies that are now called "transhuman" are available to everyone, and they start using them, despite their previously held philosophical objections...
[10:27] Zobeid Zuma: By coincidence, I was just looking at this --> http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=538
[10:27] Dante Quan: "That damned Frankenstien Complex!" -Isaac Asmiov
[10:27] IntLibber BnT: when we talk of technological singularities people see someone else getting a lot more power than they have by being able to buy an expensive gizmo or operation
[10:27] Peer Infinity: hi Boc :D
[10:28] Lucifer Darrow: The idea that there are things that "man is not meant to know"
[10:28] Dante Quan: I do beleive Transhumanism should go hand in hand with Buddist metholodies.
[10:28] Boc Cryotank: Hi. Peer
[10:28] Lucifer Darrow: and that it is diabological to "play God"
[10:28] GNE Greene: What about woman? :)
[10:28] Lucifer Darrow: diabolical even
[10:28] Areluna Aeon: I don't think spreading a "message" would be that helpful. Just promoting advances that improve the human condition.
[10:28] Lucifer Darrow: These are memes that we are going to have to battle for a long time
[10:28] Dante Quan: you heard the US has ordered Afganistan to start buying Terminator seeds?
[10:29] IntLibber BnT: orly?
[10:29] Dante Quan: such technology is not positive
[10:29] IntLibber BnT: if its for poppies it might be
[10:29] IntLibber BnT: lol
[10:29] Dante Quan: for general foodstuff, i'm afraid
[10:29] IntLibber BnT: ya not a good country to push into that
[10:29] Dante Quan: right now, we can use this technology for humanity, or we can use it agaisnt humanist.
[10:30] Dante Quan: I'd rather like to see the company that creates Terminator Seeds close it's doors.
[10:30] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: escuse my ignorance but what are Terminator Seeds?
[10:30] GNE Greene: Cyberdyne Terminator seeds... Sorry. :)
[10:31] IntLibber BnT: well if its truly a competitive disadvantage then another company should be able to develop an in-the-field treatment that reverses terminator genes
[10:31] Dante Quan: Terminator seeds can only be planted once, they do not create offspring
[10:31] GNE Greene: Supplier dependencies...
[10:31] IntLibber BnT: ya
[10:31] Dante Quan: Order 81, I beleive, orders Afganhistan farmers to use Terminator seeds.
[10:31] IntLibber BnT: have a link?
[10:32] IntLibber BnT: this is a presidential order?
[10:32] IntLibber BnT: or one from Karzai?
[10:32] Rober1236 Jua: surprise tehre
[10:32] Rober1236 Jua: there
[10:32] Dante Quan: I dont know, I'll google it, I found it eariler
[10:32] GNE Greene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_seeds
[10:32] IntLibber BnT: is this a congressional bill or a presidential order?
[10:32] Lucifer Darrow: It helps to understand why lightbulbs have an engineered lifespan
[10:32] Zentinal Ziskey: another company probably couldn't do it without legal repercussions. it would have to be an open source bio project.
[10:32] Dante Quan: http://technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=1951
[10:33] GNE Greene: It will be interesting to see what the US's allies there have to say.
[10:33] Dante Quan: disgusting, in my opinion
[10:33] IRC: wrldpc has joined #cosmeng
[10:33] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Fuck
[10:33] IntLibber BnT: light bulbs have a short lifespan cause the technology is ancient, and its the nature of the technology. to make a long lived incandescent bulb, you also have to make it twice as inefficient
[10:33] Dante Quan: hmmm
[10:33] Rober1236 Jua: Well one of hte problmes with R and D is when is it just not making a new commodity addcitive consumption like T-seeds?
[10:34] GNE Greene: 2000hr rather than 100hr lightbulbs could be bought, but were more expensive.
[10:34] GNE Greene: 1000*
[10:34] Dante Quan: http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14270
[10:34] IntLibber BnT: < designed energy efficient lighting for a living
[10:34] Dante Quan: and that, thats more informative
[10:34] Rober1236 Jua: There is a real gap between would could be done to help and what actually gets marketed
[10:34] Dante Quan: well, should we support terminator seeds. then?
[10:34] IntLibber BnT: compact fluorescent is way better than incandescent
[10:34] Peer Infinity: so, um, what does all this have to do with the topic "what should we be doing next"?
[10:34] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: those seeds are a crime against humanity
[10:34] GNE Greene: I used to buy 2000hr incandescent bulbs.
[10:35] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: What we should be doin gnext is providing a better alternative
[10:35] Zobeid Zuma: I'm against anything purposefully designed to be less useful.
[10:35] IntLibber BnT: incandescents are being outlawed anyways
[10:35] Lucifer Darrow: We should oppose govt mandating of terminator seeds imho
[10:35] Dante Quan: anyway, back on topic? :P (sorry Peer)
[10:35] Rober1236 Jua: Well Lucifier do you buy Apple?
[10:35] GNE Greene: White light LED should allegedly be 3x as eficient as compact fluorescent.
[10:35] Lucifer Darrow: Let the consumer decide which seed products are the best value
[10:35] IntLibber BnT: yes GNE
[10:35] IntLibber BnT: LEDs are the next step in efficiency there
[10:35] Zobeid Zuma: I was member of an environmental group here on SL for a while. . . but I could hardly talk with them without getting into arguments.
[10:35] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: we should provide a better alternative to the hunchbrained future the powers that be are trying to force on us
[10:35] Rober1236 Jua: consuers will always decide against T-seeds
[10:36] IntLibber BnT: after that we will have electroluminescent lights that are 99.5% efficient
[10:36] Lucifer Darrow: Rober1236 I have a macbook for work but I'm not sure why that's relevant?
[10:36] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes but when T-seeds are all that you are offerd?
[10:36] Rober1236 Jua: Just a poor joke
[10:36] GNE Greene: Non-T seeds will likely become a smugged item... Maybe hidden inside bibles...
[10:37] IntLibber BnT: ok on this topic, who is 'we' and where do you propose we do it?
[10:37] IntLibber BnT: in SL, RL ?
[10:37] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: We are the Cosmic Engineers, and we do it where we can because we must
[10:37] IntLibber BnT: has anybody heard of the polywell fusion reactor?
[10:37] Dante Quan: not here.
[10:37] Zobeid Zuma: Yes, I've been following Polywell closely.
[10:37] IntLibber BnT: it was Bussards evolution of the Farnsworth Fusor
[10:38] IntLibber BnT: he achieved over unity fusion
[10:38] IntLibber BnT: his results are being replicated by his company on a navy contract
[10:38] Peer Infinity: Niles, please feel free to write up a plan for this project, and post it to the mailing list or Wiki...
[10:38] Dante Quan: so, shortly, he'll dissapear from the face of the Earth
[10:38] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I said "We are teh Cosmic Engineers and we do it where we can because we must"
[10:38] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: damn fecking chat lag
[10:38] Zobeid Zuma: Bussard already died last year, unfortunately. :(
[10:38] IntLibber BnT: ok this is a model of a polywell fusion rocket engine
[10:38] IntLibber BnT: yes his company is carrying on tho
[10:39] Zobeid Zuma: And he did not achieve "over unity" fusion. . .
[10:39] Dante Quan: fuel source?
[10:39] GNE Greene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell
[10:39] IntLibber BnT: yes he did
[10:39] IntLibber BnT: he could only do so for about a millisecond due to the lack of any major cooling and power production system, his was a test reactor only
[10:39] Zobeid Zuma: No, he did not. They only made small-scale test reactors. The data suggests it could produce net power if scaled up, but that hasn't been demonstrated yet.
[10:39] Peer Infinity: anyone, if you have any ideas for a project that you think would be a good idea for the group to work on, please write up a draft of a plan, and post it to the mailing list or wiki
[10:39] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Peer if I could plan my way out of a wet paper bag...
[10:40] Peer Infinity: even a very rough draft would be a useful start
[10:40] IntLibber BnT: net power is different from over unity
[10:40] Rober1236 Jua: Well
[10:40] Dante Quan: Int, you got a copy of that device somewhere, I'd really love a copy.
[10:40] GNE Greene: I'd be prepared to kick ideas around with someone, if they like. Maybe ask awkward questions. :)
[10:40] IntLibber BnT: sure
[10:41] BB Lutwag: with open source proposals, you don't have to do all the work yourself
[10:41] Zobeid Zuma: Actually, I've never heard the term "over unity" used by anybody (before today) outside of perpetual-motion machine scams.
[10:41] Dante Quan: Thanks :)
[10:41] IntLibber BnT: thats a really crude insult
[10:41] Zobeid Zuma: Over unity is the term they used to describe a working perpetual motion machine.
[10:41] IntLibber BnT: wrong
[10:42] IntLibber BnT: it is an engineering term to describe any system where there is a supercritical stage reached
[10:42] IntLibber BnT: i.e. a fission reactor producing enough neutrons to sustain a reaction
[10:43] IntLibber BnT: or a fusion reactor that produces more heat/neutrons/other particles than is put in to initiate the reaction
[10:43] Dixit Writer: oh hello
[10:43] Zobeid Zuma: I'm sorry, but I don't see how that relates to the Polywell reactor.
[10:43] IntLibber BnT: so why so hostile?
[10:43] Zobeid Zuma: I don't know, I was wondering exactly that.
[10:44] GNE Greene: I'm really enthusiastic about working fusion.
[10:44] IntLibber BnT: anyways
[10:45] Zobeid Zuma: The evaluation report from WB-7 should be released "real soon now". But funding will be difficult with the current economic mess.
[10:45] Dryden Twine: the
[10:45] IntLibber BnT: reports from inside EMC2 Inc say that they've got good results
[10:45] IntLibber BnT: since they are operating on a US Navy contract I dont think so
[10:45] IntLibber BnT: esp given the huge economic value of working fusion power
[10:45] Zobeid Zuma: Does "good results" mean they expect a solid answer, or does it mean they expect the answer to be positive?
[10:46] IntLibber BnT: no it means they HAVE good results, and thats all I can say
[10:46] Zobeid Zuma: I've heard that WB-7 ran well and produced lots of useful data -- but I haven't heard anything about the analysis of it yet.
[10:47] IntLibber BnT: now, the ability of the US to get itself off of dependence on islamofascist oil will be a big thing to not only putting the US in a progressive direction
[10:47] IntLibber BnT: but the technology is also useful for rocket propulsion
[10:47] Zobeid Zuma: The big problem is that the Department of Energy is against it.
[10:47] isenhand Nightfire: hi fellow life forms
[10:47] GNE Greene: Hi isenhand
[10:47] Dixit Writer: hi
[10:47] Zobeid Zuma: And the Navy has to keep things small and quiet to stay under DoE's radar and avoid a turf battle.
[10:47] Dante Quan: ....why are they agaisnt it?
[10:47] IntLibber BnT: yes it is, cause it doesnt require billions of dollars to achieve nothing like the tokamak does
[10:47] Morpheus Maximus: Hi
[10:47] IntLibber BnT: the DoEs job isnt to acheive useful fusion
[10:48] IntLibber BnT: its to spend billions on 'energy research'
[10:48] Zobeid Zuma: They're against it because they are committed to tokamaks, and their experts have already gone on the record saying Polywell can't work.
[10:48] Khannea Suntzu: Hey y'all
[10:48] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I saw another, even cheaper Fusion process on Google, what was that?
[10:48] Dante Quan: IE< finding more oil.
[10:48] isenhand Nightfire: hi Khannea
[10:48] Khannea Suntzu rips off some gaffertape and applies it to simulate modesty
[10:48] Peer Infinity: hi Khannea :D
[10:48] IntLibber BnT: heya Khannie
[10:48] Morpheus Maximus: Hiya Khan
[10:48] Boc Cryotank: Hi, Khannea
[10:48] Dante Quan: Eh oh, Khan
[10:48] Zobeid Zuma: You might have seen Focus Fusion. . .
[10:48] Peer Infinity: perhaps Khannea can help get this meeting back on track...
[10:49] Rober1236 Jua: How about making models of fusion proposals
[10:49] Rober1236 Jua: and giving them away all over SL
[10:49] Khannea Suntzu: People can I invite you to follow me, I wanna show you something
[10:49] Dante Quan: I dont think this train was ever on rails to start with, Peer/
[10:49] Rober1236 Jua: with text describing the promise of fusion?
[10:49] isenhand Nightfire: lead away
[10:49] Dixit Writer: ok
[10:49] Boc Cryotank: OK.
[10:49] Dante Quan: what is it, Khan?
[10:50] isenhand Nightfire: hi boc
[10:50] Boc Cryotank: HI, Isen
[10:50] Dante Quan: bye bye peer!
[10:50] Khannea Suntzu: Does anyone NOT see a board with years on them
[10:51] Dante Quan: O see a board but i'm still rezzing
[10:51] Lucifer Darrow: We are out of IRC range here
[10:51] Khannea Suntzu shouts: Does anyone NOT see a board with years on them
[10:51] Peer Infinity sees an empty board...
[10:51] isenhand Nightfire: is it
[10:51] Khannea Suntzu: I'll head bnack in a few secopndsd
[10:51] Peer Infinity tries playing media...
[10:51] Dixit Writer: i cant see anything in the board
[10:51] Morpheus Maximus: on the side wall
[10:51] Boc Cryotank: This big one?
[10:51] Dante Quan: I can see a few objects on it
[10:51] Peer Infinity: now I see the quicktime logo on the board...
[10:51] Zobeid Zuma: I see a blank white sign.
[10:51] Dixit Writer: ah ok
[10:51] Dixit Writer: rezzing
[10:51] GNE Greene: The Plausibility Exchange?
[10:51] Peer Infinity: oh, now I see the numbers...
[10:52] Khannea Suntzu: Who still doesnt see the plausibility exchange?
[10:52] Khannea Suntzu: Ok
[10:52] Khannea Suntzu: Now look at the small BOXES in the main wide board
[10:52] Zobeid Zuma: I still don't see it. . .
[10:52] Khannea Suntzu: Anyone tell me what they read
[10:52] Dante Quan: AI
[10:52] Dante Quan: Nanotechnology
[10:52] Dante Quan: and biotechnology
[10:52] Khannea Suntzu shouts: Ok who has NOT seen the SMALL BOXES yet?
[10:53] Khannea Suntzu: Everybody try clicking them
[10:53] Rober1236 Jua: Biotech, nanotech, AL
[10:53] Rober1236 Jua: AI
[10:53] Zobeid Zuma: Oh, it's over *there*. Why didn't you say so? :P
[10:53] isenhand Nightfire: Khannea, can I make a sugestion?
[10:53] Khannea Suntzu: Yah sure by all means
[10:53] Peer Infinity got a notecard
[10:53] Khannea Suntzu: Excellent :)
[10:53] Arisia Vita: me too
[10:53] isenhand Nightfire: in Englsih we use "," to seperate thousands not "."
[10:53] GNE Greene: Futurology Delphic voting?
[10:53] isenhand Nightfire: The first reliable real biomedical nanobots used in human bodies by over 100.000 humans.
[10:53] isenhand Nightfire: should be
[10:53] isenhand Nightfire: The first reliable real biomedical nanobots used in human bodies by over 100, 000 humans.
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: Yah, this is a wild idea that should serve to foment heated discussions over the years
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: Over new dates
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: Over the definitions of **stepping stone** events
[10:54] Dante Quan: personally, I'd put AI back a decade, but then, thats me
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: DFante
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: That is the point
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: Send me your vote for the date
[10:54] isenhand Nightfire: every decade AI gets put back a decade so its not just you, Dante
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: I'll make an average
[10:55] Morpheus Maximus: voting and calculating could also be automated/programmed
[10:55] Dante Quan: where do we vote, then?
[10:55] Zobeid Zuma: I'm surprised at putting Nanotechnology and AI so far apart. They should be highly complementary technologies.
[10:55] Khannea Suntzu: Volunteering morpheus?
[10:55] Dante Quan: I dont think you could have one without the other
[10:55] Lucifer Darrow: This looks a bit like the Foresight Exchange except without the exchange
[10:55] Khannea Suntzu: Zobeid, these are VOTES bu people who havbe taken place in the concept
[10:55] Morpheus Maximus: hehe, I probably can do it, but am very busy also
[10:55] Khannea Suntzu: Like, almost nobody
[10:56] isenhand Nightfire: what r we voting for?
[10:56] Zobeid Zuma: How is this voting done?
[10:56] Dixit Writer: nanotechnology could be what u need to get AI
[10:56] Khannea Suntzu: Its simple, just send me the edited notecards with comments and I will throw them all together, edit a littyle and put them back by friday
[10:56] Dante Quan: if we create AI, it might say 'Hey, guys! Where's the Nanotech?'
[10:56] isenhand Nightfire: I think u need to go in the right dir to get AI!
[10:56] Dixit Writer: anyway, whatz exaclty AI? :D
[10:56] Khannea Suntzu: If you have aideas for additional blockettes, send notecards
[10:56] Dante Quan: Dixit, you say that again and I might murder you
[10:56] Khannea Suntzu: If you want to change defenitions, send me notecards
[10:56] Dixit Writer: we think about AI like what?
[10:56] Khannea Suntzu: This is *democratic*
[10:56] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I though AI was what you needed to get Nanotech
[10:57] Dixit Writer: AI could never exist
[10:57] isenhand Nightfire: AI is what ever u can't get a computer to do
[10:57] Khannea Suntzu: Good planet, thats a valid comment and I would like people to start argueing over that, and ADD COMMENTS
[10:57] Dante Quan: isenhand, good pointy
[10:57] Zobeid Zuma: That's an odd thing to say, Dixit.
[10:57] Dixit Writer: AI doesnt exist today
[10:57] Khannea Suntzu: Its using the unique characteristics of SL
[10:57] Dante Quan: it does, i'm afraid *rolls eyes*
[10:57] Khannea Suntzu: This isnt immeduately possible on a forum, and foment interactivity
[10:57] Dixit Writer: mmm
[10:58] Dixit Writer: specify what kind of AI u know?
[10:58] Khannea Suntzu: I am sure if it catches on, this will be streamlined and all sorts of people will hasten to volunteer their scripting skills.
[10:58] Dante Quan: not the fictional, mass murdering Hollywood AI
[10:58] Dante Quan: thats for sure
[10:58] Khannea Suntzu: I can add at least a dozen small blocks about AI on the board.
[10:58] GNE Greene: AI could be next week...
[10:58] Peer Infinity: perhaps this should be liked to the Wiki? use wiki pages for people to submit their votes and comments?
[10:58] Lucifer Darrow: This is a vote, are there plans to make it an exchange?
[10:58] Dante Quan: Artificial Creativity, Automatic Programming...
[10:58] Dixit Writer: so they are not ... I
[10:59] Dixit Writer: so differente
[10:59] Dante Quan: the Wiki does not lend itself to a voting system
[10:59] Khannea Suntzu: Exccvellent Dante!
[10:59] Dante Quan: Just a bottomless pit of knowledge here :P
[10:59] GNE Greene: Can AI exist without robots?
[10:59] Khannea Suntzu: hell I would even add space, antigravity, psionics,
[10:59] Dante Quan: yes.
[10:59] Zobeid Zuma: psionics = never
[10:59] Khannea Suntzu: It should cause people to respond to each other and come together to argue
[10:59] PlanetNiles Dreamscape chuckles at Psionics
[11:00] Khannea Suntzu: Excellent, zobeid, write a notecard
[11:00] Dante Quan: psionics? ha ,havent heard of that in a long time
[11:00] Dante Quan: mind you, i've seen some strange things...
[11:00] GNE Greene: Psionics could be fun. :)
[11:00] Peer Infinity ponders how to calculate the average of "never" and "tomorrow"...
[11:00] Zobeid Zuma: antigravity = possibly never, certainly not for a long time
[11:00] Khannea Suntzu: I personally would not bet on psionics either, but other people may disagree
[11:00] Khannea Suntzu: Thats the point
[11:00] Dante Quan: 50/50 I'd say, Peer
[11:00] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: artificial psionics, like radio-based telepathy yes
[11:00] Khannea Suntzu: Heated discussion, people denouncing each other as nincanpoops, flaming
[11:01] GNE Greene: I've seen information apparently transfered, and I couldn't figure out how it happened.
[11:01] isenhand Nightfire: we have anti-gravity machines, they r called shelves
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: Ok
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: Great
[11:01] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: honest to goodness Psi powers.. urm I'd like to say yes but in this company...
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: I will ad a small box with the title "furniture"
[11:01] Dante Quan: violence, beheading...as we're philopshers, we might as well get it over and done with now.
[11:01] Morpheus Maximus: maybe also a label "singularity"
[11:01] GNE Greene: How about "New hysics"?
[11:01] GNE Greene: Physics*
[11:01] Dante Quan: I dont discount it complterely, but there are so many fakes out there it hides the very very small evidence for it/
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu: In 1-2 months i want noobs to stumble over this place, start clicking the blocks and be suirprised at the spectacular content and expertise contained in this wall
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu: I will add a *howthefuckdoesthiswork* thing friday
[11:02] Dante Quan: it could work.
[11:02] IntLibber BnT: psi powers are a fringe of the whole crowd claiming a quantum effect basis of the mind
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu: Who thinks this is monumentously stupid and I should be slapped around?
[11:03] Zobeid Zuma: how about "fossil fuels obsolete"? that might be pertinent. . .
[11:03] IntLibber BnT: ok I'd slap you around anyways Khannie
[11:03] Peer Infinity still recommends connecting this to the wiki somehow...
[11:03] Dante Quan: we dont know abough about the brain to rule out quantum mechanics just yet
[11:03] Khannea Suntzu: I agree peer, but I found myself it's not happening
[11:03] Khannea Suntzu: And we want in world content, interactivity, discussion
[11:03] Peer Infinity: what's not happening?
[11:03] Morpheus Maximus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_future_in_forecasts
[11:03] Zobeid Zuma: psi is just a modern synonym for "magic"
[11:03] isenhand Nightfire: Khannea , its better to do than not to do
[11:03] IntLibber BnT: agreed Zobeid
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: A reason to come here and nag and bitch over those idiots who added *intelligent crystal healing matrices*
[11:04] Boc Cryotank: I like the wall. Is that what we are going to call it?
[11:04] Dante Quan shamefully hides the bit he was writing
[11:04] IntLibber BnT: then again watch out for Clarke's definition of magic
[11:04] Zobeid Zuma: Not that I'm giving up my Lucky Astrology Mood Ring, mind you. . . ;)
[11:04] Boc Cryotank: Time wall.?
[11:04] isenhand Nightfire: the wall?
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: If you have a better name, I am open to suggestions. For now it is *read the title above*
[11:04] Boc Cryotank: Big Time Wall?
[11:04] Dante Quan: no! the Wall! with a capital
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: Plausibility Exchange
[11:04] isenhand Nightfire: if we call it "The Wall" we could make a movie about it ;)
[11:05] IntLibber BnT: Transhuman Futures Exchange
[11:05] Dante Quan: Alright, who has Hollywood on the phone, then?
[11:05] Dante Quan: oooh, I like that
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu: Isenhand let me introduce you to the lavatory I bough earlier this week
[11:05] isenhand Nightfire: oops
[11:05] Lucifer Darrow: I would recommend not calling it an exchange unless it is an exchange like other prediction markets, otherwise you risk losing a lot of credibility
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu: Well
[11:05] Dante Quan: Plausiblilty Timeline?
[11:06] IntLibber BnT: if you guys would like me to set up a real futures exchange we can do that
[11:06] Boc Cryotank: How about somthing with the word Vote in it/?
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: actually that is the embryonic philosophy
[11:06] GNE Greene: How much do you have to pay to vote? :)
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: I suggest writing down notecards and sending suggestions
[11:06] IntLibber BnT: we'll need to pool some funds for me to pay my developer but we can do it pretty easily
[11:06] IRC: PeerInfinity: hmm, never mind, I don't have edit permissions for the IRC gateway...
[11:07] Peer Infinity: hi Eschatoon :D
[11:07] IRC: gprisco: I will move it if I can
[11:07] Peer gives Eschatoon a big hug.
[11:07] IntLibber BnT: we can use our stock exchange software
[11:07] Khannea Suntzu: No uintlibber, this proceeds on the level of blackboards
[11:07] IntLibber BnT: just duplicate the system and adapt some of the code
[11:08] Dante Quan: bugger, you know, this has just inspiring me to write a small essay on the whole thing
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: However we use a billion dollar server and a 30+ megabyte client side program to simulate some magnets on your fridge
[11:08] Peer Infinity expects that we might end up making a fancy system to average... a total of about 4 or 5 votes... :P
[11:08] GNE Greene: I'd be interested in seeing of there are interesting info transfers, which you could call 'psi'. I'll worry about causitive mechanisms later. :)
[11:09] IntLibber BnT: well Peer, I always wanted to produce Robin Hansons risks futures market that got shot down by congress
[11:09] Boc Cryotank: Just a thought: how about the possibility of represtning each vote that is cast as a dot of the particular color for that topic. This would alow people to see how much disagrement there is on each topic. as well as the level of consensus.
[11:09] GNE Greene: Quantum voting. :)
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: Oh this is like a retarded embryo with a soft skull
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: I am sure IF it catches on it will evolve
[11:09] Peer Infinity once again automatically thinks "MediaWiki extension"...
[11:09] Eschatoon Magic: hi there
[11:10] Khannea Suntzu: Heya Boss
[11:10] Boc Cryotank: If each line were colorcoded and specific to a topic such as scattershot depiction might be easier to understand.
[11:10] Dante Quan: and the colour denoting how much time it took to change? (IE not changed, black to - changed very quickly, red?)
[11:10] isenhand Nightfire: hi Eschatoon
[11:10] GNE Greene: Hi Eschatoon
[11:10] Morpheus Maximus: Hi Eschatoon
[11:10] IntLibber BnT: Noooobody expects the Eschaton
[11:10] Khannea Suntzu: Suggestions are best delivered in notecard
[11:11] Khannea Suntzu: I have been rather pressed with homework and my memory stacks are red steaming hot
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: See? Giulio understands this perfectly with but a glance
[11:13] Dante Quan: O.o
[11:14] IRC: PeerInfinity: there, I can move it now too
[11:14] lyndell Aleixandre: ati card <---
[11:14] Eschatoon Magic: yes david has shared it with group
[11:14] lyndell Aleixandre: will crash often
[11:15] Eschatoon Magic: new look of isenhand is great
[11:15] Peer Infinity: :D
[11:15] isenhand Nightfire: thx :D
[11:15] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc has joined #cosmeng
[11:15] IRC: PeerInfinity: hi Ben :)
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Anyways, I am to the bar getting a triple wodka
[11:15] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: Hi
[11:16] Dante Quan: Hello, anyone else in there?
[11:16] Eschatoon Magic: so who has something interesting to discuss
[11:16] Eschatoon Magic: Hi Ben
[11:16] IRC: PeerInfinity: there are 8 people in here
[11:16] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: You do!
[11:16] Dante Quan: should we continue the Terminatoir seeds discussion?
[11:16] Eschatoon Magic: but some people are in both SL and IRC
[11:17] Eschatoon Magic: lets hear about terminator seeds
[11:17] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: Extropia's Essays?
[11:17] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: or did i miss htat?
[11:17] isenhand Nightfire: missed it Ben
[11:17] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: k
[11:17] Eschatoon Magic: definitely you missed that it was 2 weeks ago!
[11:17] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes we should, or at least the general solution to presenting a better future than teh one the powers that be seem to have planned for us
[11:17] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: What's a Terminator seed then?
[11:17] Peer Infinity: shall we go join Khannea at the bar and pillow area?
[11:17] Dante Quan: a seed you can only use once
[11:17] isenhand Nightfire: PlanetNiles, that's what I'm into
[11:18] isenhand Nightfire: :D
[11:18] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: oh right, the GM type?
[11:18] Dante Quan: http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14270
[11:18] Dante Quan: yeah, theres a good article on what the US are about to do with them
[11:19] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: would should compare ideas then isenhand
[11:19] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: ak!
[11:19] IRC: gprisco: david perhaps we should duplicate the gateway
[11:19] Dante Quan: now, you understand? :p
[11:19] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: indeed
[11:20] isenhand Nightfire: PlanetNiles, do u have anything up in writing?
[11:20] IntLibber BnT: Ok guys you were talking about Order 81
[11:20] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: unfortunately no
[11:20] IntLibber BnT: this doesnt apply to afganistan, it applies to Iraq
[11:20] Eschatoon Magic: can eceryone move to the other side please!
[11:20] Dante Quan: yes, my fauly, sorry.
[11:20] Dante Quan: fault*
[11:20] isenhand Nightfire: we have a few articles up on the web, if u want to read them
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu shouts: Hey come here, wodka is free here
[11:20] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: <Ben moves to the other side>
[11:20] isenhand Nightfire: hi BB
[11:20] IntLibber BnT: given iraq is profiting 80 billion a year on oil, I dont see a problem with them agreeing to buy american seeds
[11:21] Dante Quan: your paying for it, Khan!
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: aaadante can you flip up these signs 2 meters
[11:21] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: links?
[11:21] Dante Quan: wheres the gateay
[11:22] Dante Quan: aww....
[11:22] Dante Quan: :P
[11:22] Eschatoon Magic: ok now everyone is here
[11:23] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: typically for me; I have a goal but no idea how to even begin, but I'll think about it
[11:23] Eschatoon Magic: hi areluna nice to meet you
[11:23] Dante Quan: Khan, your best wine, please :P
[11:23] Eschatoon Magic: whats this goal thing
[11:23] Areluna Aeon: Hello nice to meet everyone here
[11:23] isenhand Nightfire: we have started working on building a better futuer, PlanetNiles
[11:23] Dante Quan: yes, by arguing with everyone
[11:24] Peer Infinity: oh? what have you done so far, Isenhand?
[11:24] IRC: gprisco: warning everyone: I am doubled - I am here and my toon is in SL. We share one brain at 50% but do not necessarily express the same opinions
[11:24] isenhand Nightfire: me? Dante ?
[11:24] Dixit Writer: Macchiato, not Macciato :D
[11:24] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes but what are we actually doing about it Isenhand?
[11:24] isenhand Nightfire: u know the idea, Peer?
[11:24] Dante Quan: no, just all of us having a discsussion :P
[11:24] Eschatoon Magic: yes macchiato
[11:24] Dante Quan: brb
[11:24] Eschatoon Magic: italian is a beautifulo langrage, should be respected
[11:24] Eschatoon Magic: pronounce makkiato
[11:25] Dixit Writer: lol thanks :D
[11:25] isenhand Nightfire: we have 2 NPOs now, with another we hope by the end of the year and 2 more to follow in the next 2 years. THat's the start of the network
[11:25] Eschatoon Magic: NPO = non profit org?
[11:25] isenhand Nightfire: yeap
[11:25] isenhand Nightfire: or "not for profit"
[11:25] isenhand Nightfire: the idea is to remove the profit motive
[11:26] Khannea Suntzu: awGNE I doulw edit the chair but you have a ball around you
[11:26] isenhand Nightfire: here is one of our NPOs : http://denia.si/
[11:26] Peer Infinity is quite embarassed to have forgotten that...
[11:26] GNE Greene: I appear to have IRC hysteresis issues. :)
[11:27] isenhand Nightfire: is that infectous, GNE?
[11:27] GNE Greene: I hope not...
[11:27] IntLibber BnT: why is removing a profit motive bad and how does that make you more productive?
[11:27] Eschatoon Magic: that like AIDS?
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: So anyone want a druink?
[11:28] Eschatoon Magic: isenhand: don't you guys have to eat?
[11:28] isenhand Nightfire: if a company is prmary interested in making money its aim is not to build a better futuer
[11:28] isenhand Nightfire: eat?
[11:28] Dixit Writer: launch time yeah
[11:28] isenhand Nightfire: :D
[11:28] Peer Infinity: GNE: it looks like you're sitting right at the edge of the gateway's range...
[11:28] IRC: gprisco: yes eat - you need money to eat
[11:28] GNE Greene: Eating is good, as is continuing to pay for broadband...
[11:28] Areluna Aeon: why not, if a better future will provide it an opportunity to make more money
[11:28] Boc Cryotank: Computers have made a lot of money. Yet they have improved the future beyond measure.
[11:29] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: why do we need to bother with money?
[11:29] isenhand Nightfire: Areluna , there's alos an idlogical objection as we do not belive the current money based system is sustainable and that conflicts with our goal
[11:29] IRC: gprisco: I also think in many cases making $ is compat with improving things
[11:29] isenhand Nightfire: if we remove money we can concentrat on goals
[11:29] IRC: gprisco: not always, but often
[11:29] isenhand Nightfire: the the Q is do we have the resouces to do what we want to do
[11:30] Dante Quan: question; would the current econmonic crisis distablize Moore's Law>
[11:30] Dante Quan: ?*
[11:30] Boc Cryotank: Some tasks are best done for money, and some are best done not for money. To pretend that one method is better is ilogical. Each is different and has its important place.
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: No Dante, because a lot of businesses will need to save money, and that requires better hardware.
[11:30] IRC: gprisco: agree with boc, 100%
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: I demand massive lay offs and automation to reduce costs on commuting
[11:30] isenhand Nightfire: Bos, for us tasks r done to achive a goal
[11:31] Dante Quan: so you think it would actally increase, then, Khan?
[11:31] IRC: gprisco: lets not be religious here - both nonprofit and forprofit can improve things
[11:31] BB Lutwag: economic cricis may speed up technological development, since people will be looking for new solutions
[11:31] Dante Quan: anyone disagree?
[11:31] Boc Cryotank: Computers were a goal.
[11:31] isenhand Nightfire: yeap :D
[11:31] Dante Quan: personally, I dont think it's wise to have new mobile phones, iPods coming out every 6 months
[11:32] Dante Quan: I think we might see a return to items that are suppose to last a year at least
[11:32] Areluna Aeon: I have no idieological issue with making money. I Am a captialist.
[11:32] SuspendMe Turbo: the current techniques cant be streched forever, its not a given that a new technique will take over, Moore's law could be ending in 2015
[11:32] Khannea Suntzu: .me squirms uneasily
[11:32] Dante Quan: I have every issue with making money, I dont see why others should suffer for my short-term gain
[11:32] Boc Cryotank: Forced obsolesnece is a prosperity we will have to live with I think.
[11:33] Dante Quan: unless it equals in gain for them in the long -term
[11:33] Areluna Aeon: how do others suffer if I make money?
[11:33] isenhand Nightfire: I also have an objection to capitalism similar to Dante
[11:33] GNE Greene: Broadband to every home...
[11:33] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: they suffer ifyou make your money by forcing ppl to buy teminator seeds
[11:33] Khannea Suntzu: I'd say Capitalism is tyhe default system when you cannot organzie markets
[11:34] Boc Cryotank: Making money produces prosperity. I like living in a prosperous world.
[11:34] Dante Quan: now thats something worth working towards
[11:34] Dante Quan: not prosperity for everyone
[11:34] Dante Quan: someone has to suffer
[11:34] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yes but ultimately our goal is to remove scarcity
[11:34] isenhand Nightfire: Boc, capitalims is not the only way to prosper
[11:34] Khannea Suntzu: People who claim in the future we wont at some stage have organized markets are missing the point. Take war economies.
[11:34] GNE Greene: Capitalism suffers bandly from a monoculture...
[11:34] GNE Greene: badly*
[11:34] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: why, Dante?
[11:34] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: and make everyone equall rich
[11:34] IRC: gprisco: also, most people have to support families and must make money with what they do
[11:34] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: *equally
[11:34] Dante Quan: our finical system cannot let everyone be rich.
[11:34] Boc Cryotank: I want everyone on earth to be prosperous. That is the direction history has been mioving for centureis. The job is far from done. But we are on our way.
[11:35] isenhand Nightfire: capitalism shifs resouces to a small minority, inceasing poverty
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: I am personally sick and tired of the slavish devotion bordering on the stalinistic of kapitalism, in the broadest defenition.
[11:35] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: fuck broadband
[11:35] Areluna Aeon: no, captialism create resourses
[11:35] IRC: DLucifer: I honestly don't understand objections to free trade
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: Likewise postulating the opposite of market mechanism capitalism <==> communism is ludicrous
[11:35] GNE Greene: No broadband, no SL?
[11:35] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: I want food and basic nessecityies to EVERY human being
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: These are just two totally arnitrary evolved systems
[11:35] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: *nessecities
[11:35] GNE Greene: Clean water for all is a good start.
[11:36] IRC: gprisco: planetniles - so do I but I have no objections to people making much more money than average
[11:36] isenhand Nightfire: u can treat the whol system as a resouce alloocation system and we have better ways of doing that than capitlims
[11:36] Khannea Suntzu: Ya it aint gona happen. we live in a world where a clique has been working to artificially engineer scarcity wherever they had a chance.
[11:36] Areluna Aeon: capitalism create money, Money is no finite.
[11:36] GNE Greene: Clean water had more effect than medicine late 19thC/early 20thC UK.
[11:36] Eschatoon Magic: EN PASSANT - COSMIC ENGINEERS GROUP IS NOW OPEN JOIN IF YOU WISH
[11:36] Khannea Suntzu: I bet there are corporations just waiting to make all water unpotable so they can sell bottles
[11:36] Dante Quan: as the Terminator problem has shown
[11:36] BB Lutwag: is it still capatialism when everyone becomes slaves to debt
[11:37] Dante Quan: I thought that was the general idea, get everyone oweing you money
[11:37] Areluna Aeon: Nope.
[11:37] GNE Greene: The push to home ownership instead or rent put far more people in dubt than ever before.
[11:37] Khannea Suntzu: The one single reason capitalism works right now is because the vast majority of people dont trust one another as far as they can spit at them
[11:37] isenhand Nightfire: Khannea, lots of oil compnaies have bought up water reserves in the Us, so rumour control says
[11:37] Dante Quan: I admit there is no or little evil in passive capitalism.
[11:37] isenhand Nightfire: Khannea , the system makes ppl like that
[11:38] Dante Quan: but the aggresivie king (like Microsoft, putting a patent on Binairy, for instance) is just too much
[11:38] Areluna Aeon: that's just human nature
[11:38] Dante Quan: kind*
[11:38] isenhand Nightfire: Areluna, no its not
[11:38] IRC: gprisco: I wish we could stop this eternal querelle between free markets and social fairness - I think both can coexist
[11:38] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: yeah the CIA has been predicting (teh paranoid would say "engineering") Water Wars in teh near future
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu: I don't mind capitalism, but the onus is on the system, or anyone who perpetuates it, to make bloody damn sure people will have access to food, water, space and whatever it takes to keep em sane and happy.
[11:38] GNE Greene: If you regularly interact with more than approx. 150 people you wont know them all.
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu: If capitalism fails in that, capitalism will have to go
[11:38] Boc Cryotank: Capitalism creates computers, the internet, even Second Life. Comunism has only created words and complaints.
[11:38] Areluna Aeon: that's goverments, not Captialism
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Oh there we go again
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Likewise postulating the opposite of market mechanism capitalism <==> communism is ludicrous
[11:39] isenhand Nightfire: so, Boc, is that the only way? Given the resouces whats to stop ppl making computer etc without capitlims?
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: These are just two totally arnitrary evolved systems
[11:39] GNE Greene: Socialism seems to work reasonably well in Scandanavia?
[11:39] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: So, short of eliminating capitalsim, what's do be done about this terminator seeds problem in iraq?
[11:39] Peer Infinity: Communism made Tetris...
[11:39] isenhand Nightfire: yes, untill we get a right wing gov that buggers it al up
[11:39] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: Socialism works well if it makes evferyojne equally rich rather than equally poor
[11:40] Dante Quan: or, indeed the capitalistic nature of the US miltiry ; make money by boming the shit out of people (which was how they got out of a similar econmic mess last time, I think)
[11:40] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: *everyone
[11:40] GNE Greene: Needs to be enough spare resources for innovation.
[11:40] IntLibber BnT: problem is Planet is that socialisms practice focuses on making everybody equally poor
[11:40] Khannea Suntzu: I'd postulate that the US political system can under no cuircumstances afford real capitalism
[11:40] Dante Quan: I'd like to test that, Khan
[11:40] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: move in non-t-seeds into Iraq and undercut the T-seeds?
[11:41] Boc Cryotank: The progressive nations have combined both capitalism with communism (or soacialism if you prefer) to make a more huiman system. This has worked reasonably well, but remains a tug of war.
[11:41] Dante Quan: they would sell better, it's only logical
[11:41] isenhand Nightfire: Khannea, the Us gave up with true capitlism by the 1930s
[11:41] IntLibber BnT: who are you calling progressive?
[11:41] IntLibber BnT: yes isenhand
[11:41] IRC: Ben_Zaiboc: but the non-t seeds will be illegal
[11:41] IntLibber BnT: the US system is NOT capitalistic
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: The wqorld economy is worth about 60.000 billion dollar per annum
[11:41] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: It need not in a post scarcity society IntLibber
[11:41] IntLibber BnT: it is a mercantilist economy
[11:41] GNE Greene: Monocultures in places wich have had a range of varieties is a really bad idea.
[11:41] IntLibber BnT: nanotechnology will not elminate scarcity
[11:41] Areluna Aeon wonders what this discussion has to do with H+ or transhumanism
[11:42] GNE Greene: We need diversity, in all sorts of areas.
[11:42] isenhand Nightfire: Areluna , it started of with how to move from A to B :D
[11:42] Dante Quan: small steps, GNE
[11:42] Khannea Suntzu: So how can a worldwide ssytem generate a 500.000 billion dollar market/ I smell all kinds of contrived, artificially created scarcities.
[11:42] IntLibber BnT: well look at SL
[11:42] IntLibber BnT: SL models a nanotech economy
[11:42] Khannea Suntzu: I postulate the system as it works now works to enforce scarcity on everyone
[11:42] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: well IIRC most of that money doesn't actually exist
[11:42] IntLibber BnT: you can rez copies of things
[11:42] isenhand Nightfire: yes Khannea, the current system has to maintain scarcity to work
[11:42] IntLibber BnT: build things easily
[11:42] Boc Cryotank: This digression strated with someone claiming that capitalism was bad, and it got out of hand from there.
[11:42] GNE Greene: Avatars/people like gods. :)
[11:43] PlanetNiles Dreamscape: no I asked why we'd need money in teh future
[11:43] Khannea Suntzu: Yah, so people are dying, going without decent shelter. This system has to go, or it has to evolve.
[11:43] Dante Quan: what of the abilty of true nanotech to create whatever the mind desires, as long as their is the approiate feedstock?
[11:43] isenhand Nightfire: don't think we need money in the futuer
[11:43] GNE Greene: Dead people rarely innovate much.
[11:43] Khannea Suntzu: And the damn *deniers* of change,. of alternatives will have to come up with a solution.
[11:43] IntLibber BnT: money will always be necessary
[11:43] Dante Quan: money is artifical trust.
[11:43] isenhand Nightfire: I disagree, IntLibber :D
[11:43] Khannea Suntzu: Sure, for buying shoes, Gibson says
[11:44] IntLibber BnT: many needs for money will be eliminated
[11:44] GNE Greene: Money is a useful illusion, evolved from resource barter.
[11:44] IntLibber BnT: only trekkies believe money will be eliminated
[11:44]