Chat Logs/2008-01-21-11-06

From Order of Cosmic Engineers

The following is a mostly-complete, slightly-edited log of the chat from Jan. 20, 2008, at the SL-Transhumanists lounge / Cosmic Engineers SL Group HQ.

See Chat Logs for a list of other chat logs.

Chat Logs/2008-01-21-11-06
- Date: Jan. 20, 2008, 11:06 to 11:55 SLT
- Main Participants:
- Other people present:
- Topics:
  - Transhumanism

The following pages contain text compiled from this chat:

Transhumanism

[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: Cutter?
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: Ya came here for info?
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: Don’t be shy
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: If I bite I do it very arousing
[11:07] Cutter Randt: hi Khannea
[11:07] Khannea Suntzu: Heya
[11:07] Khannea Suntzu: You came here to hang?
[11:08] SL4observer Lane rubs my ankle, suddenly remembering Khannea's bite :)
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: OR are you a spie?
[11:08] Cutter Randt: lol
[11:08] Cutter Randt: do you have ways of making me talk? lol
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: You are a Linden spy aren't you?
[11:08] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: I have seen one of those
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: Several vays as a matter of vact
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: Cutter, have ya ever heard of transhumanism?
[11:09] Cutter Randt: I've heard of it but don't know too much about it...
[11:09] Cutter Randt: what I've heard sounds interesting to me though...
[11:09] Peer Infinity: hi PlayaPlaya :)
[11:09] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: hello
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: Heya Playa
[11:09] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: hi everyone
[11:10] TomThumb Tomsen: hi
[11:10] Morpheus Maximus: Hiya Playa
[11:10] Terence McKenna: Whee. Getting crowded there.
[11:10] Khannea Suntzu: Well, Playa, Cutter, I can give you a vague outline of transhumanism
[11:10] Khannea Suntzu: Problem is that transhumans are very diverse
[11:10] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: ok
[11:10] Cutter Randt: yes please...as long as you promise to be vague 8)
[11:10] Khannea Suntzu: Its about the opposite of a cult - transhumanists are like herding cats
[11:11] Morpheus Maximus: yes
[11:11] Peer Infinity: aw, did you have to mention the c-word?
[11:11] Terence McKenna: I typically define transhumanism as a superset of humanism.
[11:11] Khannea Suntzu: The basic idea is this - technology is accelerating. Some technologies aren’t but the ones that matter are
[11:11] Khannea Suntzu: In the next decades we will see very disruptive and fun technologies
[11:11] Terence McKenna: Only, with the human condition being work in progress.
[11:11] Cutter Randt nods.
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: Like Virtual reality, Nanotechnology, Artificial Intelligence
[11:12] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: yes
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: Those will rip apart society as we know it rrreal fast
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: It may get hairy
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: But for a lot of people it may be exiting
[11:12] Peer Infinity: exciting*
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: Later on, say
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: Around 2030-2040
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: We will see even stranger
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: stuff
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: This may result, some say
[11:13] Peer Infinity: (though I suppose it may be "exiting" for a lot of people too)
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: In a moment when technology advances so fast that stuff
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: Yah grand finale, very possible
[11:13] Cutter Randt: lol Peer
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: Its largely unpredictable
[11:13] Morpheus Maximus: afk
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: And around 2035 we may see a spike in general weirdness
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: Say
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu: How can you tell in advance what a mind will do
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu: That thinks at a lot of terahertz?
[11:14] Cutter Randt: I'm with you so far Khannea...
[11:14] Peer Infinity: it helps if you're the one who programmed the mind, and its goal system
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu: Yah Peer, I think right now in 2008 it is still a dice roll
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu: It can get real buttugly
[11:14] Peer Infinity: right - we still need SIAI to finish their job
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu is silent for a moment
[11:14] Terence McKenna: Nobody can predict anything definite for 2035 right now.
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Playa, Cutter... the thing is
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Most people have no clue of this
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Ask Bush how he will go sailing with his grandkids in 30 years
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: He will probably think he will get groceries in a plastic bag
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: With a hummer
[11:15] Cutter Randt: lol
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: People are very ignorant of a lot of change that IS certain
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: I mean - talk about robots
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: Simple hollywood robots with hands
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: These things will wipe away any chance at a job
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: Unless its a very creative job
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: But about 75% of jobs we know today
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: Those should be gone by 2025
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: There will be *a few* new jobs
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: People retraining
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: But you can count your butt on it that in your lifetime
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Changes will
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu looks at the moth
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Changes
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Me ta mor pho sis
[11:17] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: nice
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: will have a serious effect on your life
[11:17] Peer Infinity: ooh, that's another nice av, Cutter :)
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: So
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Guys
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Any questions?
[11:17] Cutter Randt: thanks Peer ....Grendels rocks! 8)
[11:18] Peer Infinity: :D
[11:18] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: lol
[11:18] Cutter Randt: hmm...so what is Transhumanism? in the context of what you're saying?
[11:18] Terence McKenna: I think it's premature to paint a specific timeline, Khannea.
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: Its this group of geeks who are morbidly fascinated by all this
[11:18] Cutter Randt: lol awesome
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: Hey Terence, let me do the hollywood style imagery yes? I am making them all randy about it.
[11:19] Drive Amat: "In other words, we want people to be better than well."
[11:19] Drive Amat: from the WTA website
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: Let them think, * I can handle all that change ! *
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: Yah
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: People can get fixed
[11:19] Terence McKenna: Transhumanism is a set of values, people with that set of values, and actions from those values.
[11:19] Peer Infinity tries out my oversimplified definition: "basically, a transhumanist is someone who is generally in favor of using technology to go beyond the current limitations of human biology"
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: Yah
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: If we're lucky
[11:19] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: ok
[11:20] Drive Amat: peer: exactly
[11:20] Cutter Randt: like cyborgs....
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: This week there was an article on contact lenses with graphics stuff in them
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: Yah
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: Cyborg stuff too
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: But ... subtle
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: Not chrome arms with buzzsaws
[11:20] Terence McKenna: Not your Hollywood type of cyborgs.
[11:20] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: in rl?
[11:20] Peer Infinity casually strokes Morpheus's shiny metal arm :)
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: Yeps IRL
[11:20] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: hmm
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: It will probably start with small nanoid thingies in your blood that clean clotted arteries
[11:21] Terence McKenna: Assume you can do in RL most of what you can do in SL.
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: Can you see the merits of that?
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: Yah
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: SL is a nice feel for how life MAY be in 30 years
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: If we're lucky
[11:21] Cutter Randt: I was listening to an interview with W. Gibson last week...talking those kind of contacts....and VR overlaid on rl...
[11:21] Drive Amat: transhumanism is just a general idea, right?
[11:21] Terence McKenna: For most of these things centralized bodies are not helping.
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: Yeps
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: You should rrreally read "rainbows end"
[11:22] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: what’s that about?
[11:22] Khannea Suntzu: the best book for the near future
[11:22] Khannea Suntzu: Hold on I have a link... :)
[11:22] Drive Amat: http://vrinimi.org/rainbowsend.html
[11:22] Khannea Suntzu: If ya like behind you is a link where you can actually buy the book
[11:22] Khannea Suntzu: Oh yes
[11:22] Khannea Suntzu: That’s it
[11:22] Khannea Suntzu: The white board with book covers
[11:23] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: ahh I see
[11:23] Khannea Suntzu: :)
[11:23] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: interesting
[11:23] Khannea Suntzu: Yah pretty much yes
[11:23] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: deep
[11:23] Khannea Suntzu: Fun part is you will have front row seats when all this comes down
[11:24] Terence McKenna: The dog pile looks funny from outside.
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu: Whatever the hell will come down
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu: But
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu: Actually
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu: Drive Amat was supposed to do this song and dance
[11:24] Velicia Llewellyn waves
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu: Haye Velicia
[11:24] Velicia Llewellyn: Hi :)
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu: Hi hun
[11:25] Drive Amat: song and dance?
[11:25] Peer Infinity: heh, personally, I would rather upload my mind into a virtual reality, rather than wasting matter and energy on a physical, cyborg body
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Hihihihi ubersubbie
[11:25] Terence McKenna: Peer, all cognition is embodied.
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Shhhh peer, don’t get all scientology on them !
[11:25] Terence McKenna: Unless you can make spacetime compute.
[11:25] Cutter Randt: well...thanks Khannea...very interesting stuff your talking about....
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Cutter
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: On the board there
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: The blue one
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: There are links to websites
[11:25] Peer Infinity: I refuse to let scientology steal the concept of uploading into a virtual reality!
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Here
[11:26] Terence McKenna: Peer, you always need the physical layer.
[11:26] Drive Amat: the physical layer could be the computer itself
[11:26] Terence McKenna: It might be not-in-your face, but if there's a lot of it it will be very in-your-face.
[11:26] Khannea Suntzu: These are my book choices
[11:26] Peer Infinity: Terence: yes, I realize that I would still need computing power to run my virtual self
[11:27] Terence McKenna: Of course, but not computers as you know them.
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: And I am an incorrigible leftie
[11:27] Peer Infinity: but that's still far more efficient than a physical body
[11:27] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: nice
[11:27] Terence McKenna: If you're a god, you can easily use a km^3 of hardware, or even more.
[11:27] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: what do you know about the........
[11:27] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: illuminati
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: Why can't I have both? Why cant I be a chrome ball with legs on the moon and a soft pliant 17 year old on earth? I want both!
[11:28] Khannea Suntzu: Illuminati? Great book
[11:28] Velicia Llewellyn giggles
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Well, Earth has been strip-mined, so...
[11:28] Khannea Suntzu: Large bits of the Illuminatus Trilogy were actually written with the author high on acid
[11:28] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: lol
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: Velicia, my idea of a successful singularity involves having a lot more sex than I have IRL right now
[11:29] Terence McKenna: I don't know why people assume uploads are solipsistic.
[11:29] Velicia Llewellyn: Mmmmmmmmmm * nodsnodsnods*
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: Oh I will love uploading
[11:29] Cutter Randt: hmmm I'm wondering how buddhist understandings of reality/non-reality and self/no-self work in the context of transhumanism...
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: When I grow up
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: Cutter the big guy of the World Transhumanist Association is a buddhist
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: And he cant shut up about it
[11:30] Velicia Llewellyn: lol
[11:30] Cutter Randt: oh yeah? the big guy?
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: The president? James Hughes
[11:30] Peer Infinity: heh, I named my SL avatar after the ultimate solipsist - Peer, from the novel Permutation City, but I'm not entirely a solipsist
[11:30] Terence McKenna: WTA is still around?
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: Well you should know, you cryogenically froze it?
[11:31] Cutter Randt: Khannea....okay...that would make sense because it seems very much mutually influenced...
[11:31] Drive Amat: Terence: now, or later?
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: Well
[11:31] Terence McKenna: I don't like Permutation City, and Egan in general.
[11:31] Terence McKenna: Drive, what?
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: Cutter... transhumanism is about freedom to grow
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: I think it shares that with Buddhism
[11:31] Peer Infinity: hi Velicia :D
[11:32] Cutter Randt: I guess I'm coming more from a buddhist base, although I'm not a buddhist technically...but the approach and ideas I'm hearing resonate..
[11:32] Khannea Suntzu: Yah I suppose
[11:32] Terence McKenna: I don't really understand how buddhism is relevant.
[11:32] Khannea Suntzu: Buddhism is so "laiisez faire:
[11:32] Khannea Suntzu: Maybe that’s the association
[11:33] Terence McKenna: Then why not the Unitarians?
[11:33] Khannea Suntzu: You wanna waste time on opium? Sure take a century.
[11:33] Cutter Randt: hmmm maybe its not Terrance...I'm new to these Transhumanism ideas...but there seems to be a shared understanding of "reality" and "self"
[11:33] Khannea Suntzu: Why not the Zoroastrians? Why not the pre-revisionist oldseries Trekkies?
[11:33] Cutter Randt: or at least a shared interest in asking hose questions....
[11:34] Khannea Suntzu: Nah cutter you are just trying to get a handle on this stuff by comparing it to what you know.
[11:34] Terence McKenna: Cutter, can you expand on what you mean by shared understanding of reality and self? I can't really parse what you say as is.
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: Just look at the websites if it interests you and form an idea afterwards.
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: Oh Terence, don’t scare him.
[11:35] Cutter Randt: maybe Khannea...but I'm attracted to both understandings ...
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: Oh that’s no crime Cutter
[11:35] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: isn’t this how the matrix started
[11:35] Cutter Randt: ok Terence...I'll try
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:35] Khannea Suntzu: Yah
[11:36] Khannea Suntzu: But the Matrix is very limited
[11:36] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: hmm
[11:36] Cutter Randt: hmmm...and maybe it will help me to clarify what transhumanism is....
[11:36] Terence McKenna: Matrix also assumes flesh people in pods.
[11:36] Khannea Suntzu: Let me say it this way
[11:36] Terence McKenna: Do please go on, Cutter.
[11:36] Khannea Suntzu: All cultural references, even spiritual systems, are based on old stuff. Patterns people have recognized and lived and written poetry about.
[11:37] Velicia Llewellyn nods
[11:37] Khannea Suntzu: Religion, history. Its all old stuff
[11:37] Cutter Randt: at least in thinking about cyborgs or uploading ones "Self" ...it makes pertinent certain questions
[11:37] Khannea Suntzu: Transhumanism is humanity dealing with an onslaught of totally new stuff
[11:37] Peer Infinity posts a link for you to check out later - "The Logical Fallacy of Generalization from Fictional Evidence" - http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/10/fictional-evide.html
[11:37] Khannea Suntzu: Like Cutter, how important is internet in buddhist terms? Not much, because its NEW.
[11:37] Cutter Randt: what is self...what is reality....
[11:37] Terence McKenna: PlayaPlaya, do you realize that the Matrix as depicted is a Hollywood movie?
[11:37] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: yes
[11:37] Khannea Suntzu: TerENCE
[11:38] Terence McKenna: Yes, Khannea.
[11:38] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: sounds close to what she was saying
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu chastises Terence
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu: Don’t scare these people!
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu: That’s my job!
[11:38] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: umm
[11:38] Terence McKenna: :)
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu: The matrix is rehashed old stuff
[11:38] Khannea Suntzu: Full of cliches
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Originally mixed, but old stuff
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Mythology
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Gibson used all sorts of metaphors to describe the internets
[11:39] Cutter Randt: so I guess that is where I am finding a similarity....in the fundamental questions being raised...
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: But who could predict Russian penis extension spam
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Who can come up with something that fucked up?
[11:39] Velicia Llewellyn giggles
[11:40] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: your in that body on sl
[11:40] Cutter Randt: does that clarify Terence?
[11:40] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: in this game its just a vehicle for your mind
[11:40] Terence McKenna: Cutter, transhumanism trespasses on religious terrain.
[11:40] Cutter Randt: what is religious?
[11:40] Khannea Suntzu: Cutter, if you wanna explore this particular message and this particular group of people, its practical to have a matrix to organize your ideas. But don’t let it become a prison.
[11:40] Khannea Suntzu: Oh absolutely
[11:40] Khannea Suntzu: Many transhumanists piss on religion
[11:41] Drive Amat: (most?)
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: Bunch of respectless bastards
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: That’s why I am here
[11:41] Peer Infinity glances knowingly at Lucifer :)
[11:41] Terence McKenna: That's not a coincidence, it is because religions sell a product people want.
[11:41] Velicia Llewellyn smiles
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: Am I doing ok daddy? *winks as Lucifer*
[11:41] Cutter Randt: hmmm....did you get my question Terence?
[11:41] Terence McKenna: I don't think there's any more overlap.
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: Religion *over* there
[11:42] Khannea Suntzu: Transhumanism *over there* (points elsewhere)
[11:42] Velicia Llewellyn: :P
[11:42] Terence McKenna: Cutter, I'm trying to synthesize your question from the disjointed scroll, but I'm failing so far. So I'm just answering what I thought you were going to ask preemptively.
[11:42] Cutter Randt: aahh...okay...there's a lot of chatter...
[11:43] Terence McKenna: Yes. Can you summarize your perceived similarity between buddhism and transhumanism?
[11:43] Cutter Randt: what I asked was "what is religious?" just trying to get specific about terms...especially emotionally charged ones like "religion"
[11:43] Khannea Suntzu tries to see Terence as "avon lady" and fails
[11:44] Terence McKenna: Defined by exclusion, religions deal with the transcendent. Transhumanism deals with the immanent.
[11:44] Khannea Suntzu: That’s a cool angle yes
[11:44] Terence McKenna: Basically, let us all become gods, and live happily ever after.
[11:44] Peer Infinity suddenly notices the party getting started in the southwest corner of Extropia
[11:45] Terence McKenna: Always event overlap. Urgh.
[11:45] Velicia Llewellyn waves and heads off to the party
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: Bye vel
[11:46] Cutter Randt: Terence....nice definition....in that case I should specify that I'm not a buddhist in the sense of believing in a transcendent (if that is what buddhist believe) but rather I'm interested actually experience..the immentant as you say
[11:46] Terence McKenna: Khannea, what do you think our track record is so far.
[11:46] SL4observer Lane heads over to the party too
[11:46] Terence McKenna: I thought the core aspect of buddhism is to enter nirvana.
[11:48] Terence McKenna: If there's a bandwidth of experiencing reality, then gods can certainly cut off a larger piece off it.
[11:49] Cutter Randt: in my understanding, Terence, it's not that simple...eurocentric religions strive to be able to sum themselves up on a phrase "Hey-zues is the savior and lord" for example....
[11:49] Khannea Suntzu: Sorry, track record?
[11:49] Terence McKenna: If your thing is to become a god, then this goals is compatible with transhumanism. However, if you want to become something less than a human, then that's okay, too. Diversity is good.
[11:49] Cutter Randt: but I don't want to hi-jack the convo with too much buddhist talk...I'm just trying to understand transhumanism....
[11:50] Terence McKenna: The track record of our office hours so far. I think it's ramping up good, but I'd like to hear your opinion.
[11:50] Terence McKenna: Not a problem, Cutter.
[11:50] Khannea Suntzu: Its ok, I am dropping in on all events that take part when I am not sleeping and there are always representatives
[11:50] Khannea Suntzu: Only Amat appears to be shy as heck
[11:50] Cutter Randt: and do answer your specific question....the similarity I see is in the nature of the questions being asked....what is "self" and what is "reality"....maybe not coming to the same conclusions...but the questions are always more interesting than the answers....
[11:51] Terence McKenna: Cutter, I don't know what Wikipedia currently says about transhumanism, but it's worth checking out.
[11:51] Cutter Randt: k Terence....
[11:51] Khannea Suntzu: Yah, this is all about mannnnny different perspectives
[11:51] Drive Amat: click: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism
[11:51] Cutter Randt smiles, in the way only a butterfly can.
[11:51] Khannea Suntzu: HEY guys isn’t it even more cunning to continue this conservation at the Extropia picnic??
[11:51] Terence McKenna: Most transhumanists are scientists and technologists. To them questions about "reality" are largely meaningless.
[11:52] Peer Infinity: heh, I should mention those questions to California Republic, to add them to his presentation :)
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: PIC NIC
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: Guys, all move your asses to the Extropia picnic
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: Continue there
[11:52] Terence McKenna: I think I'll join a picnic downstairs, in RL.
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: Ohhh ok
[11:52] Terence McKenna: See you laters, Khannea.
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: Say hi to the kids and the wife Terry
[11:52] Terence McKenna: I will :)
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: :)
[11:53] Cutter Randt looks at Terence sideways. "I would have to disagree about your understand of science."
[11:53] Morpheus Maximus: back
[11:53] TomThumb Tomsen: thanks for the very interesting discussions I will meditate on them
[11:53] PlayaPlaya Pomilio: well that was new
[11:54] Cutter Randt: hmmm...is everyone leaving?
[11:54] TomThumb Tomsen: unfortunately tax returns are pending
[11:54] Morpheus Maximus: there is a picnic elsewhere on the sim
[11:54] Cutter Randt: oh okay Morpheus....
[11:55] Morpheus Maximus: could continue there maybe
[11:55] Morpheus Maximus: I'm going there now, byebye
[11:55] Cutter Randt: yes maybe that would be nice
[11:55] TomThumb Tomsen: bye

sort-of continued in TomThumb Tomsen/On Transhumanism

Chat Logs/2008-01-21-11-06

From Order of Cosmic Engineers

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